It's a war of civilisation against terrorism

President [Francois] Hollande has declared war on the ISIS [Islamic State]. What does ‘war’ here mean? Or did the ISIS declare war first on France?

The thing is they [the ISIS] attacked us long time ago. So, the war has been on for some time now. And it’s just one episode of the war, which happened in the past. But the war is on and it hasn’t ended yet. I think it could take more time.

It’s a war of civilisation against terrorism. It’s not at all a war against Islam. We respect all religions and we have the deepest respect for Muslim people. But the people we are fighting against are just terrorists using Islam, and they are giving Islam very bad name. They use Islam for their own purpose. We want to find a very strong leadership against those terrorists, but we want also to express that the French people and people of the world are not fighting against Islam. 

 

So you don’t think that it is a religious conflict?

We don’t think it is. Terrorists are using religion to claim ideology. But in fact, it’s not religion, it’s a false statement. The truth is that those people want to prevail by terror, and in fact they want to involve terror for fear, and they want to boost their view, and their view is not Islam. Their view is just to boost themselves, and this we have to fight against. Because, if they prevail, this will be the end of the civilisation we love. 

 

Why did they pick France as a target?

I think we symbolise what they hate the most – the joy of life. In French history, we had to fight for centuries to get the right to be brothers in France, to have equal treatment by law and to have what makes French society an open society, to have the right to meet on the terrace of a cafe or restaurant, the right to enjoy music, to enjoy light moments together, to watch beautiful ladies or young men walking on the street, to drink what we want to drink, and to enjoy life simply. And this is not acceptable to them.

 

They don’t want this to continue, they want to destroy this way of life?

Exactly, and they want to impose their view and we don’t share this view. And that’s why I think they’ve targeted us. And that’s why we shall keep on going to terrace of cafes, going to nice restaurants, and ladies will continue to wear beautiful dresses and men will enjoy their familiar looks.

 

Is it not also because France was involved in anti-ISIS operations in Syria, because France sent planes and is involved in military activities against them?

It’s a part of a reason, but why we joined this alliance against ISIS is because, first of all, they attacked us and they are a threat we had to react. And they try to seduce and attract, if I may say so, young people in countries including France to join them. This is a danger for our society. That’s why we decided to join the international alliance against ISIS. But I think the real reason why they picked on us, although there are other members in the alliance, is because we symbolise what they hate the most – freedom and a certain way to enjoy life… They want to make an example one more time. They also target young people. You can see that people who were killed were very young.

 

Why do they target young people?

Because they’re the future. I think what they want is to impress the next generation as much as possible to make the generation comply with their ideology.

 

And the terrorists are also quite young?

Yes, they are very young. Same age, and more or less, same background. So it’s in the heart of society that this thing happened. And the very important thing is that in France, the younger generation reacted very well. They were immediately shocked [by the incident], and they’re very eager to stick to the values, which are our national values. And this was very important.

 

That you will not be frightened by violence that you would not allow normal lives to be disrupted by terrorism?

Exactly, I think this is answer to terrorism – not to be terrorised. This is the real answer. Because what they want to do is just to terrorise us and to make us do what they expect. What they hope is that we will fight against the Islamic community in France and that we will be divided. And this will not happen. We shall remain united. So we are very hopeful that instead of dividing us, they will unite us even more than before.

 

Do you think that this incident is related to the Charlie Hebdo incident?

A: Yes, I think the ideology [behind the two incidents] is exactly the same. In attacking Charlie Hebdo, it was a way to show that the freedom to speak and the freedom of the press is unacceptable for them. Because for us, those people who were killed were very much symbols of this. They were, in fact, journalists from the 1960s – the generation of flower power. That’s why they chose to hit those people. And now they’re hitting young people enjoying lives just for the same reason, because they want to create hatred between the non-Muslim and Muslim communities . They want to divide us, and they also want to involve certain view of behaviour. That’s why we have no other option than to fight. Of course, we love to negotiate and try to find compromise when it’s possible. But with this kind of people, it’s just impossible because they don’t talk at all.

 

There are some suggestions that some of the terrorists are home-grown, meaning they were living in French society. How did it happen? How did young people in France get seduced into this kind of extremism?

Now there are social networks. It’s very easy to communicate, to broadcast information and ideologies. In every society, especially among young people, there are people who do not know what to choose in society, what values they have to choose, what their preferences and their identities are. I think this is the issue. So it’s possible through the Internet to seduce and attract young people and this is what happened.

 

So why are young people not happy? And why are they so easily seduced?

It’s a society. When you are just teenager, it’s the time of life when you don’t know which way to choose. You’re confused. It’s normal. It’s a part of building your personality. But some people with bad ideas try to convince you that this is the right choice. It’s a period of life when it may be easier to be convinced. And I think maybe those young people joining the ISIS have feelings to become part of the community, to have brotherhood of the same community. This maybe the reason why they choose this. Of course, they are an absolutely minority, but very influential and active minority.

 

How many young French nationals have joined the ISIS?

We don’t know the exact figure, but it’s about 1,000. It’s quite a big number.

 

Could it be that those people are unemployed or not happy with the pleasure of a capitalistic society?

Definitely, those people do not accept French society, in this case. And I think this is the main reason why they choose another society. Of course, this is a failure of our educational system. When you see a population, there is [always] one person who is deeply dissatisfied with the society. It’s a small minority, but can be very dangerous.

 

Still, you think that lessons to be learnt by the French society that somehow it is so unthinkable for any young man to join a movement that thinks killing people is okay and harming people is acceptable. This is a strange value. What are the other reasons that we can learn?

The best way to make society united is tolerance because it is what makes you accept different societies. The reason may be that they have the feeling not to be a part of French society. So, instead of imposing something on them, we have to convince them that the best-feeling society is to be tolerant, to accept the differences and to live together.

 

In fact, every religion teaches people to be tolerant, Islam especially.

That’s why I’m saying it’s not Islam. They claim it’s Islam, but it’s not. What is behind this is absolutely intolerance. That’s why we cannot talk to those people, because if you have somebody tolerant in front of you, we will accept differences of opinion and even find the compromise. But this extreme is absolutely intolerant so there is no way to talk to each other. And maybe once, we can do it in the future. We are willing to do is to make our society even more tolerant. I think it’s already very tolerant society.

 

Maybe because young people have the feelings that they cannot express themselves enough so they join the other side?

The idea is that in our society, everybody can find an absolute place. But at the same time, with this ISIS organisation, we have to be very, very strict. We have to be more tolerant with our younger generation and in our educational system. We have to stop this ISIS. If we don’t stop them, they might do much more harm. I’m sure that we will never prevail because it’s human nature to enjoy life, to enjoy pleasures, to talk to each other, to share, and to accept the differences.

 

Some people say France is specially vulnerable because of its history that you accepted a lot of people from former colonies, and that’s why a lot of communities in France and young people from those countries cannot adjust to the new way of life in France. That’s why they rebel and become extremists. Is that an acceptable analysis?

It’s partly true. The truth is that we’ve always been a mixed society and it’s a pride for us because all those people come from different backgrounds and origins to become French people. It’s just like the US. And it’s really a pride for us because we succeed in making those people, during many centuries, become French. And I’m sure we have the right to do the same with Muslim people coming into our society. It is right and we have to make them French people. But we cannot avoid a small minority, which do not accept the values of our society. I think every country in the world has mixed ethnic society. So, in that sense, we are all in the same boat and we are all vulnerable. The only answer is to stick to our values and to be united. I was very moved, and my fellow French men here were also moved by the reaction of Thai people. At every level of society, we have a lot of friendly supports, and we are very grateful.

 

Thai people can share the feeling, I think. They can understand why this is a very bad thing and that we should show our sympathy and support in this critical time, as we also recently experienced the Ratchaprasong bombing.

We are all in the same boat. It’s very important – these moments of friendliness, compassion and sympathy. I would like to take this moment to express my gratitude to friends for all their sympathy. At the middle of the night, I have seen people bringing flowers and candles in front of the embassy. This is very moving.

 

It must be quite a mixed feeling of sadness, loss, and also at the same time pride and good feeling that you’re still together at such a depressing time. How do you handle these feelings?

There’s always a good sign in every tragedy. In this case, of course, we got shocked, like when I got the news [last] Saturday morning. But immediately after, I got some phone calls from Thai friends telling me that they’re with me. It was the feeling of shock, sadness, and also the feeling of very strong friendliness. This is what gives us hope. And my feeling at the end of the day is fraternity and friendliness from all our friends, especially in Thailand.

 

How do you explain this to young people, because it is a very difficult issue to explain to young people who must have a lot of questions in their minds, like why France? Why is this happening? Who are these people? Why do they want to kill us? I understand that you also met with young French students in Bangkok.

Yes, we gathered about 1,200 children, from seven to 18 years old, in our French school on Monday [November 16] morning and their school master gave them a speech about all values and I talked afterward. What I wanted to tell them was very simple, it was something that we always got, like freedom to wear the kind of clothes you like, freedom to listen to music, freedom to talk to each other, freedom to share our view, and freedom to disagree. Your ancestors had to fight to get this freedom, which is not acquired forever, it can disappear anytime and some people can try to make it disappear. The only answer to that is to stick to our values, to stand firm, to be united to do it, and also to call friends to help us. I think they understood that this fight for values is not their fathers’ or grandfathers’, but their own fight. It was very moving because at the end of my speech, I asked them to observe a one-minute silence. After that, it was at the end of the progress and I was supposed to move away. They didn’t move, they were still there, silent, and I could hear the voice of one child singing the French national anthem in a low-pitched voice. It was totally impromptu. And then there came two voices, three voices, and the whole assembly was singing the national anthem in such a way, maybe it was the most moving time in my life when I heard the French national anthem. I think this is the proper answer. Because, in fact, what it was meaning is the national anthem. They stick to our values, and they accept to stand for our values. It means that the effort we make on education works and that we can have hope that the next generation will carry on.

 

So they sang the national anthem until the end?

No, because the anthem is very long and none of us knows the whole anthem. Maybe some professional singers do, but it’s very long. So they sang the part of the anthem, and they we stopped all of the sudden, and then one started laughing because they were supposed to know more of the anthem but none of us did. And we all laughed at the end of the ceremony. It was great, natural and touching.

And you feel that you were all of one heart. What do the first words of the national anthem mean?

The words mean ‘let’s unite to fight for freedom’. And to end this vibe, laughing together, it was something really great. I’m very happy because I have great hope that our youths are really committed to our values. I also have a great hope in our friendship with Thailand, and with all countries in the world supporting us, that they will remain and help us to overcome [this situation.]

 

So you think that the bombings in Syria or Iraq will not stop until the ISIS is wiped out?

Yes, unfortunately we have no other options.

 

And France is working with the US, Russia, and also the European Union (EU). I think it’s for the first time all 28 EU countries agreed to exercise Article 42.7 in the EU treaty, which would let all members support any member that feels threatened. And the interesting thing is the clause has never been invoked before.

There’s always a bright side in every situation. We’re very happy to see our friends around in this special moment.

 

Will France be the same again after this incident?

Oh yes, we shall not change in any way. Our way of living, our behaviour; maybe even more gratitude for our friends. When something is at stake, then you value it even more. 

 

There has been a story that not only young French men are lured into the ISIS, but also [young people] in Southeast Asia – Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore. They are also worried that some of their young people will join the ISIS. Some of them were already recruited. What do you think? Can Asean members learn any lessons from the French experience?

I think we all have to be very careful with this. The danger can be everywhere in the world. It’s one more reason to have solidarity, for Asean countries to cooperate more with each other and the rest of the world. This fight is not the fight of one region, but it’s the world’s fight.

 

Do you believe in the story that Russian passenger plane, the metro jet, was downed by an ISIS bomb?

I read in the news that the Russians said that it is so. It’s very unfortunate that more than 200 people were killed. There are a lot of children killed, too. That’s why we don’t have much option but to fight ISIS. I think there is only one response possible, and it’s a strong response. People who are able to do this kind of thing cannot be in the world or society. It’s not possible.

 

So exchange of intelligence with some of Asean members over this issue will be intensified?

I don’t have exact information. It’s not my job but I’m sure it will. We have to exchange more intelligence and work more closely than before to fight [against] those people.

 

What would you say is the main lesson from this incident for France and also for the rest of the world?

The main lesson is that we have to be very watchful. Security is extremely important to this kind of situation. I fully agree that there is a war, and we have to take the consequences of the situation.

 

Do you think the French government and the French society will have to do more in explaining or trying to get young people to be part of the values, because some of them may feel alienated?

It’s a never-ending effort. The efforts of teachers to educate about civic values are something very important. We have always carried on this effort, and it’s never enough, the world is changing so fast. We have to explain to children around the world of what is happening because it’s difficult for them to understand. This is education. It’s not only for teachers, professors, but also for parents. We have to take our responsibilities.

 

But at the same time, it would reflect that French society is weak in many areas and has to be corrected.

Society and humanity are changing all the time. They will never be perfect. You have some strong points and weak points, and we have to improve always. What is good about this crisis is that we see that we are very firmed, very strong in our values. So, it means that we have done good jobs, but we still have to do more. We also have to find the words to convince the next generation to do more.

 

I saw a quote by you telling French people that when terrorists want us to kneel down, we should stand up. Would you say it again?

Absolutely. When terrorists want you to stop talking, you have to speak very loud and clear; when they want you to kneel down, you have to stand up very firmly on your principles; when they say they win, you have to show them that they didn’t and they won’t, ever. This is exactly what I said and think, and also what my fellow Frenchmen think about the proper answer.